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Maniac raised a question about 7 in the other thread and I started replying to it, but it ended up being an essay and worthy of an entry into the history thread, so here’s a thread for it.
Turks is not actually the reason for 7 leaving the fold.
We had an influx of new members around the start of 2002 during which time 7 and a few others were enjoying a period of inactivity. 7 and, specifically, Enigma came back at the same time, and didn’t recognise the place. They found themselves having to reintegrate into a group they had been major players in for 2 years or so, and I didn’t do enough to help them. There were communication problems, as we were using systems they were unfamiliar with, and unfortunately 7 also joined us during one of our tactic sessions. We decided to have a few of these back then because we were considering some friendlies, and later a 12 v 12 league (in which we actually did quite well considering).
The tactic sessions were ridiculous though, and we only held 2 or 3. The first one I made it to, and it consisted of us following someone around the map talking (via in game chat) about specific points of the map, and general nonsense that we all knew already. It also took about half an hour for someone to take leadership and for people to stop running about like headless chickens, climbing hills etc (around the airfield on iwo jima iirc). Completely pointless experience, but memorable in that it was the first time we got XDC together as a single group and entity, after our rapid expansion for bf42. We grew tired of these sessions quite quickly, but 7 happened to turn up during one on El Alamein and proceeded to tk a few of us trying to wing walk on a B17. This caused some aggro as it had taken some time to get into the position for the guys wing walking, but 7 didn’t realise this, and just thought they were taking the game a bit seriously. This didn’t fit with the XDC ethos in his mind, and neither did the apparent new politically correct atmosphere.
I could see where he was coming from, but I saw it more as a problem of integrating new people into an older group which was set in it’s ways. 7 didn’t have the same patience. That Enigma then came off with a “raghead” comment in a thread regarding the impending war in Iraq, and that his rhetoric was very pro war, a backlash was provoked against him. Coupled with his reaction to that, and 7 jumping to his defence, they both became alienated from what had become the main group.
I may have been perceived as sitting on the fence at this point, but tbh my opinion on the matter hasn’t changed much, and I still stand by my comments that the context in which Enigma referenced “ragheads” suggested jargon, rather than intentional antagonism. People should understand it’s a pretty inflammatory term to use, especially when you take into account members are from different areas of the country.
This wasn’t enough to diffuse the situation, and Eggy (Enigma) posted a thread in XDC chat which I read, then deleted because it was essentially a personal attack on me (still the only time I’ve admined a member of XDC), and well that was the bridge burnt. From someone I was in contact with everyday for about 18 months to no contact since 2002 should give you an indication of what was said, but tbh my main gripe was his ridiculous interpretation of the situation. He himself didn’t have bf42 and had taken 7’s single experience in a ridiculous example of a game, along with a politically inflamed thread, as justification for a rant against what XDC and I had become. I’ve not spoken to him since, sadly.
7 also disappeared at this stage, but he came back soon after with plans to get XDC playing Ravenshield, which was the latest rainbox 6/rogue spear game. In this he was supported by Digit, and because I couldn’t get the game to work properly on my PC I asked them to work together in forming a ravenshield “section” for xdc (this was back in the day when we thought a formal leadership structure was the way to do things).
Digit’s membership of XDC was about as dodgy as anyone’s has ever been, in terms of sticking with our principles, and I always had the suspicion his ability as a pilot had got him in ahead of the usual process, but that’s not to say he wasn’t a decent guy, because he was. Digit did take the game a lot more seriously than XDC was supposed to be about though, and in that 7 was right.
The two of them together was not a good recipe, and they clashed, thankfully mostly in private, but in the end 7 left (quite gracefully iirc). I was actually on 7’s side on this one, and it must have shown because Digit left a month or two later. He wanted us to become a bit more serious in how we treated friendly games and the competitions we were entering, but with the membership we had at the time, and the xdc ethos stating nobody would be forced into attending “meetings” (or practice sessions), it was clear he was best trying somewhere else.
For XDC to ever reach the level Digit wanted, we need a group of people like minded in terms of “it’s just a game”, but also motivated enough to stick by commitments made by the group to a particular competition. We had a mixed membership in those days from which we could fulfill the commitment (only just, but it was 12v12, and my god did I work hard getting the teams together!), and we had a major problem reconcilling competitive play with our laid back approach. It took sometime to work out what “it’s just a game” actually meant to us.
7 did a lot for XDC in this respect as he constantly presented hard questions to answer, and along with others, we eventually worked out a formula to make things work. I’m not sure if anyone actually know’s what that is exactly, but I’m pretty sure it involves stabbing Paddy.
Anyway, to complete the story, 7 still makes an appearance from time to time, and I sometimes hear from him on msn, but he’s still to get me a job the bastard. Pharty, and possibly Badger, I think, have had some conversations with him following the intial problem period, and I’m of the opinion there’s a friendly mutual respect between them which has changed 7’s view of XDC, and it may also be the reason why 7 felt able to approach me again about a year or so after the main problems.
7 is still very welcome on these forums, as far as I’m concerned, and should also still have full XDC access, since I’ve never considered him as having left. That means potentially he can see this thread, but what I’m saying here is what I’d say to him. I’m happy saying that because the experience helped XDC in the long run, as well as me personally.
Interesting read..
I know how 7 feels in a way though. When XDC recruits new members its through a period of play in a particular game, and when “old-timers” like myself who have been AWOL come back it can be a bit odd. What I mean is getting on TS and integrating into the game and general chit-chat, because to the “newer” members the returning AWOL’s are essentialy strangers. From the early days of RS to now things haven’t changed that much, I feel generally the type of person in XDC remains more or less the same. I did however make a brief return during the first Vietnam days, and felt pretty isolated as a new-boy, and because of the large amount of players we had back then it was pretty daunting.
This return is no different really, but with less players, and a few that I knew from RS days it’s much easier.. actually the only “new” folks to me are really Doc, Max, Stalker, Streff & Wolf.
As for the racist (or however you describe them) comments mentioned, I agree that polotics and other inflamatory subjects are not the vibe of XDC… but remember back in the day before TS, it was much harder to guage a person from in-game text chat.
My personal feeling on the competitive side of gaming, and XDC’s participation is that I don’t really care either way. This is a “free” gaming group, where, if you take it seriously, and a few others do as well – fine go and compete under the XDC name, and if thats not your bag, also fine. I played with the “Ringers” for a couple of games on XBOX live, and to be honest when someone I had never talked to or gamed with gave me an ear bashing for a poorly placed shot, I fucked off sharpish. Again, its not because I had a problem with the guys taking things seriously, it’s just not my own preference where gaming is concerned. (Please note: Paddy calling me a cock or other expletive for poor play is not cause for offence, it actually enhances my entertainment) 😀
Over the last couple of weeks I have had a read throught the forum to catch up, and it seems the XDC collective has waxed and wained over the 3 or 4 years, but hopefully with Vietnam still popular and BF3 on the horizon, XDC can grow stronger with new members, and old ones returning.
“Every journey into the past is complicated by delusions, false memories, false namings of real events.” Adrienne Rich, b. 1929, U.S. poet, Of Woman Born (1976)
@=xdc=maniac wrote:
This is a “free” gaming group, where, if you take it seriously, and a few others do as well – fine go and compete under the XDC name, and if thats not your bag, also fine.
This is how I would like to think any group would work – but Matt’s history has missed out important elements of the story…. and forgotten that a large part of the disagreement revolved around the fact that this basic philosophy was undermined by the people under discussion.
I for one have always been astonished at how people don’t seem to want to take advantage of one of the most interesting and fulfilling parts of online game playing… i.e. working as a team in a structured way to achieve a goal. My best experiences online were all in matches… especially ones that we prepared for and practised before hand. The outcome was not important – but the process created a situation that was greater than the sum of its parts. I don’t think this is a weird thing to enjoy – look at how humans tend to form groups / adopt leadership structures naturally in society. Hell, we are talking about playing at being soldiers… look at how successful army units naturally evolve into well oiled tactical machines… presumably with a resulting increase in camaraderie and general happiness for its members.
What happened around the 7 debacle, as I remember it, was that those in XDC who did want to experiment with that type of play were made to look like they were somehow anally retentive idiots who didn’t understand what XDC was about (whatever that means). It wasn’t just people not wanting to be part of it and staying clear… it was them actively telling others what they should and shouldn’t be doing. Which is fucking ridiculous of course.
I am sure part of it was an ill deserved feeling of entitlement – along the lines of “I have been here longer than you.. so if you don’t wan’t to play the way I do then I am taking my ball home.” Also mixed up in this was a mythologising of some sort of non existent XDC ethos about ‘not taking things seriously’. This was a somewhat similar attitude to what you might remember seeing in school… if you have shit for brains then one way of dealing with people who seem keener / more proactive than you is to deride any positive steps for betterment as being ‘uncool’ and ‘lame’.
Paradoxically it wasn’t people taking their games too seriously that was the problem… it was people taking themselves and their own importance too seriously that messed things up I reckon.
Good riddance. 😈
And here we are… few years down the line and the shadow still hangs over us. I am still too scared to suggest having any tactical discussions about a game round here. 🙄
I see, the plot thickens … 😀
I remember in the early days of online soldier-sims most clans wold have a ranking structure, you’d see tags with a rank in them e.g “=XDC=[sgt.]anon”. And the various members would be subservious to rank. It’s never ever been about “not winning”, more about not having a rank structure. I personally would not allow someone to dictate to me what to do in my free time with the threat of a clan punishment should I not comply.
I always remember =7= as being quite a good player and pretty competitive in-game, so this is all quite a revelation.
As for tactics, (and this may sound like a contradiction to my previous posts). I mentioned in my last message the XBOX live situation, and I think for me playing a game like Fifa is much more casual than the other types of games I like to take part in. For example, I like the tactical element of BF2 etc.. thats why I dislike the frantic pace of games like TF2 etc.. There is nothing worse than getting a good hiding by another clan, and thats down to how the squad and team plays as a group. Of course individuals can have a large influence, but the games XDC generally play are “squad-based FPS” which promotes team work. As such a certain degree of tactical knowledge goes along way to the ultimate goal of winning, so I don’t really see why tactical discussions should not be encouraged. I would even go so far as to say, when our server is quiet, why not discuss and practice tactics? No one in XDC would be forced to attend or join in the discussion, which in my mind is the only real “ethos” of XDC.
Peace
Doc you bring up a few excellent points in that post, but I don’t doubt my interpretation of events. A problem at the time was that observers did not know the personalities involved, nor the history of XDC up to that point, and my perspective of the problem was somewhat different.
The XDC ethos, once upon a time, was absolutely central to everything we did, but I found it very interesting how different people interpretted what I had written in the introduction when we started expanding. The “we don’t take gaming seriously” thing became a problem because definitions of what “serious” might include varied across the board. When it was written the internet was new to me, as it was to the rest of our initial membership, and the concept of a clan in particular was something we all felt a little uncomfortable with. The classic clan setup back then was ridiculously geeky, and generally led by spotty teenage Hitler types who enforced rules which were tailored to boost their own egos, and that was what XDC was setup to combat. We used to laugh at people who would organise anything online, and in particular practice sessions. This wasn’t an anti-teamwork stance, it was more a case of laughing at people who made concessions in their social life to turn up for organised meets online, which was perceived as geeky back then. We were rebels against organised gaming; the anti-geek clique, and at one time we were quite militant in this respect.
I have to admit that the initial practice sessions we held for ’42 had me wondering about the people trying to organise them, but because I was active and involved, I also started to appreciate the benefits of the XDC team ethic developing, which was something 7 and Eggy didn’t see at the time. I had previously been involved in practice sessions for clans I’d tried out for on the gaming zone, and on wireplay, and I saw the benefit in terms of gameplay, but the concept still didn’t sit well with my concept of what XDC was about. I let it play out though because I was confident in who we’d recruited, and I thought we might be able to find a middle ground where you could gel as a team without having to commit ridiculous amounts of potential drinking/social time to practice sessions. 7 and Eggy were not involved in the recruitment drive for ’42 and, as a result, didn’t know the people involved, so didn’t appreciate my confidence that things would work themselves out for the best. They saw us going down a path towards what we’d been setup to combat, and questioned our direction.
The irony is that in questioning this, their backs went up, and their opposition became “serious” in itself. I was actually sympathetic towards their views at this time because I had my own doubts, but the difference was that I was involved enough to be able to influence events if they went too far, whereas they had no idea of who the people involved were, and even started questioning my judgement. They reacted really badly and in the court of public opinion found themselves alienated, and it became a vicious circle for them, in that respect.
Eggy was the youngest and flipped the quickest but 7, to his credit, stuck with it, but the damage had been done as he was seen as a trouble maker thereafter. Something must’ve happened behind the scenes though, because after some time I detected a new found respect for XDC in my convos with 7. I think some of our older boys had something to do with this (Pharty, Badger, and/or Queeks) via pm.
7 has asked me whether he’s still welcome in XDC, and I’ve told him he is, because at the end of the day I see the whole thing as having been a problem of perspective. Nobody is perfect, and I think he appreciates his initial reaction was over the top, but I also failed both him and Eggy in that I couldn’t help them settle into the new group. 7 has become quite involved with his work over the past few years, but I wouldn’t rule out a return eventually.
I also wouldn’t say this this is a shadow hanging over us; it was an experience I personally learnt a lot from (I was 22 at the time), and 7 brought up problems which needed discussion, the results of which made us a stronger entity. The XDC ethos has evolved in part because of what happened then, and we have a group now comfortable in it’s identity. With any group of people you’re always going to have arguments, and my experience elsewhere online is that this is what normally brings down clans/whatever we actually are. That we’re still here after 11 years, despite episodes like this one, is testiment to the quality of the group we have here, and this is something those of us still active should be proud of. Despite the negative impression he gave at the time, 7’s argument was hugely influencial in our development, and I think we’re worse off without him. We’ve had many characters in XDC over the years, but few have affected change as much as 7 did, and personally I appreciate it.
God i loved 42 days!!!! and nam, but boy 42 was great, spent most of my time fixing maxs tank…or blowing it up!!
regarding the clan games i found being an elder boy (cough) time was a bastard, fitting them around the family was a bitch.
My most memorable couple of games were one on Alamaine (i think) and we were getting owned with the arty (pixel aiming a point in the sky!!) soul destroying and one of my favorite ever clan games which i think was on wake, we were getting owned so Turks came out with the immortal line ‘lets hide’ sooo much fucking fun.
Best online experience ever was playing 42 & nam with you bunch of faggots:)
@nOm wrote:
God i loved 42 days!!!! and nam, but boy 42 was great, spent most of my time fixing maxs tank…or blowing it up!!
regarding the clan games i found being an elder boy (cough) time was a bastard, fitting them around the family was a bitch.
My most memorable couple of games were one on Alamaine (i think) and we were getting owned with the arty (pixel aiming a point in the sky!!) soul destroying and one of my favorite ever clan games which i think was on wake, we were getting owned so Turks came out with the immortal line ‘lets hide’ sooo much fucking fun.
Best online experience ever was playing 42 & nam with you bunch of faggots:)
Happy days! 😀
+1
best fun ever for me was BF42, the others were good but 42 was the mutz nutz.
Myself and dropkick on the airfield on one of the pacific maps, myself flying around and he shooting at me from the rear of an apc (can’t remember the name of the vehicle) or form the AA – just one constant bombing run.
great game, miss playing it to be honest………vietnam was also good fun but i lost interest with BF2 after a short while and the same goes for 2142.
Now my pc is an old dog and i won’t even attempt to try out BFBC2, family bought me an xbox for my 40th so have a few games to try out on there (including BFBC2) once i move back into my house (hopefully the painting shall be finished in the next week) so my pc gaming days may be at an end unless they ever remake 42. BF3 is yet another modern (and people moaned when WW2 was used a couple of times) which really doesn’t interest me all that much.
Just uploaded this old vid to my youtube account:
[youtube:2l766njv]zEyeY681zi8[/youtube:2l766njv]
t’was fun.
It was recorded using fraps i think and was a random game in which i was following mugworth around as well as a few others…
wtf!!!
works ok on my pc. is that because it’s my vid?
how crazy is that? You can’t have some music playing in the background of some footage you’ve shot!
youtube…….fail!
🙁
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